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Old 03-28-2018, 10:08 PM   #21
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Default Re: afterlife thoughts

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Originally Posted by OblivionIsAtHand View Post
It doesn't exist. Period. Not a provocation here. Merely an immutable truth.

When you die your consciousness is gone. Game over. You (the identity that's considered you) go nowhere.
But how do you know for sure?
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Old 03-28-2018, 11:16 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by starrysky View Post
But how do you know for sure?
We know, based on what we know about the brain, that when you expire (truly expire) your consciousness is eradicated. A wave of “spreading depression” kicks in and the cells shut down. The essence of you eventually becomes no more. It stops. It doesn't go anywhere. Now there IS some debate if your consciousness lasts for a few minutes after death. But it certainly doesn't travel anywhere (it merely is no more). It's all contained in that organ. It does not unhinge from its body. And why would it necessarily go to a spiritual/other realm if it did? Well and then someone says "but it could though!" Well, no. It couldn't. We know that consciousness emanates from the brain and stays self-contained within the brain (because consciousness is a concept that exclusively applies to the brain) until it stops. We KNOW it doesn't move anywhere, because what was your consciousness was triggered by an organ. No designer except for nature itself made this organ. We are nothing more than our brains: our identity at least.

We know, based on what empirical evidence we have, that there is no spiritual (because spiritual implies "relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.", which flies in the face of the tangible - although intangibility does not necessarily render it non-existent - or empirically proven. Why believe in the intangible notion of spirituality merely because it's something that we do not see before us? We have ways of explaining the intangible as well, and none of it includes souls or a godly source emanating from you etc.) or other realm outside the current. Given the tools we have (which I might add, if a creator really wanted us to believe in him/her/it they would want to make it abundantly clear that they are real and providing us with the tools of logic and reason and science that lead away from his/her/its existence would seem entirely pointless unless you believe that getting to know the creator truly is a test. Well, if it's a test, there lies the option to conclude that the creator is not real: why would a creator want such a trial? Especially when the most convincing evidence that the supposedly omniscient being allowed refutes its existence.), they disprove any kind of immaterial existence that we migrate to because it's illogical based on what we know is possible. We have tools that show us what's in the universe/HOW things work. You could go solely off of 'faith' and blindly hitch your wagon to an idea that you believe in 'just because' and eschew all tools given to us that make sense of our reality and not believe in what is presented before you, but that'd be akin to believing in something like telekinesis just because it sounds cool. If it sounds cool, therefore it must be real.

Say you're not even religious and you're not sure about the idea of an after-life. What would having knowledge of an after-life (and I'm presuming you're viewing it as something other than a paradise or a really bad place where you roast in eternity), really do for you? What if the after-life was just a short blip of time? If it's such an unknown entity to you, and you forever see it as unknowable, why bother worrying about it?


I probably better stop here. This is supposed to be a sanctuary. I shouldn't have posted on this thread.

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Old 03-29-2018, 01:15 AM   #23
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Of course there is a Spirit World. The hereafter does exist. I can feel it, sense it, know it to be true. The other day I felt a cold tingling sensation ( the sure sign of a spirit touching you) on my toes, when I was performing the last part of a yoga session. Laying there, I could feel the presence of my beloved cocker spaniel who had passed away (she loved to lick feet when she was alive) licking my toes with her ghostly tongue.

You see, I have the gift of being an Empath, so when I felt her at my feet, I also felt sadness from her because she missed me, and joy because I could feel her there and acknowledge her presence. No one but me does that much anymore.

My late grandma also visited me after she passed on. She was telling me goodbye because I wasn't able to do that with her while she was alive. I know deep in my heart that it was her spirit visiting me and no one can convince me otherwise.

So yes, there is a spirit world, rest assured.
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Old 03-29-2018, 07:46 AM   #24
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I'm not convinced, OblivionAtHand. What science measures is physical. There is so much that science does not know, or even measure. Perhaps someday it will, and we'll find out the truth (whatever that may be - afterlife / no afterlife). But I'm not really worried either way.
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Old 03-29-2018, 09:49 AM   #25
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Having suffered a brain injury, I've suffered/experienced (still do from time to time) some really weird and far out stuff like bending poles, seeing color prisms and having outer body experiences while awake, maybe seizures or psychotic? you pick, but my neurologists can't figure it out and all have shy'd away from the possible causes.
They (neurologists) constantly tell me that the brain is a mystery to science and man may never know it's secrets nor its full potential.

I must add also that since my injury, my perception and senses have been heightened tremendously. I was always able to see ghosts as a child, but now I can hear them, smell them and feel them. I also have premonitions, not all but many of them have come true. I've been told by therapist that I am too empathetic and others say that I am a empath, I am greatly affected by my surroundings and am spiritually connected.

Millions of people across the world, every nation for generations have experienced the same or like encounters with the spiritual world and these individuals have nothing in common ...oh wait, yes they do...they all have experienced the spiritual world.
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Old 03-29-2018, 05:35 PM   #26
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Quote:
There is so much that science does not know, or even measure.
Tell me examples of what you think science can't measure.

I certainly didn't say science was infallible. There's no doubting there's not perfection in it. If the strict adherence to science is to be looked at as a type of dogma, it's a safer dogma given its proven track record.But there are objective truths - things we can know without a sliver of a doubt, absolutes that exist irrespective of subjective interpretation: there's no denying this either. Surely you acknowledge that there are things that simply ARE. That there's knowable realities. Science ( assuming our definitions are the same) in its current incarnation has enough compelling evidence to emphatically deny the spiritual ideas put forth. All of science is not simply a consensus reality though. There is a body of knowledge that exists of its own accord, but man-made all the same; but it contains immutable truths despite being subjectively asserted. My definition of the concept holds that it does not exclusively contain just utmost certainty. And in regards to far-fetched concepts like spirituality, simply because you have a conception of it does not automatically make it a possibility.

There are things science hasn't proven definitively. But these pieces together do not automatically add up to "there is still possibility for the ethereal, spiritual, and so forth." There is no "Aha! You see? Science isn't perfect after all." gotcha! moment. OF COURSE it errs, in the same way that wielders of facts can muck them up easily. Science as a collective of information is reliable if not diluted by human error.

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Old 03-29-2018, 07:15 PM   #27
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Oblivion, I don't feel the need to argue. Best wishes.
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:48 PM   #28
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Default Re: afterlife thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by OblivionIsAtHand View Post
We know, based on what we know about the brain, that when you expire (truly expire) your consciousness is eradicated. A wave of “spreading depression” kicks in and the cells shut down. The essence of you eventually becomes no more. It stops. It doesn't go anywhere. Now there IS some debate if your consciousness lasts for a few minutes after death. But it certainly doesn't travel anywhere (it merely is no more). It's all contained in that organ. It does not unhinge from its body. And why would it necessarily go to a spiritual/other realm if it did? Well and then someone says "but it could though!" Well, no. It couldn't. We know that consciousness emanates from the brain and stays self-contained within the brain (because consciousness is a concept that exclusively applies to the brain) until it stops. We KNOW it doesn't move anywhere, because what was your consciousness was triggered by an organ. No designer except for nature itself made this organ. We are nothing more than our brains: our identity at least.
Oblivion, these claims/assertions aren't accurate, and they certainly don't rise to the level of being 'facts'...

If you could prove that the physical body creates consciousness, and prove HOW the physical body creates consciousness, you would win a nobel prize for your work! No one has been able to accomplish this.... I wonder why not?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The gap between matter and consciousness is so radical and profound that it is hard to imagine that consciousness could simply emerge as an epiphenomenon out of the complexity of material processes in the central nervous system. We have ample clinical and experimental evidence showing deep correlations between the anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry of the brain, on the one hand, and conscious processes, on the other. However, none of these findings proves unequivocally that consciousness is actually generated by the brain. The origin of consciousness from matter is simply assumed as an obvious and self-evident fact based on the belief in the primacy of matter in the universe. In the entire history of science, nobody has ever offered a plausible explanation how consciousness could be generated by material processes, or even suggested a viable approach to the problem.

While these experiments clearly show that consciousness is closely connected with the neurophysiological and biochemical processes in the brain, they have very little bearing on the nature and origin of consciousness. There actually exists ample evidence suggesting exactly the opposite, namely that consciousness can under certain circumstances operate independently of its material substrate and can perform functions that reach far beyond the capacities of the brain. This is most clearly illustrated by the existence of out-of-body experiences (OOBEs). These can occur spontaneously, or in a variety of facilitating situations that include shamanic trance, psychedelic sessions, hypnosis, experiential psychotherapy, and particularly near-death situations.

In all these situations consciousness can separate from the body and maintain its sensory capacity, while moving freely to various close and remote locations. Of particular interest are “veridical OOBEs,” where independent verification proves the accuracy of perception of the environment under these circumstances. There are many other types of transpersonal phenomena that can mediate accurate information about various aspects of the universe that had not been previously received and recorded in the brain.

Western materialistic science has thus not been able to produce any convincing evidence that consciousness is a product of the neurophysiological processes in the brain. It has been able to maintain its present position only by resisting, censoring, and even ridiculing a vast body of observations indicating that consciousness can exist and function independently of the body and of the physical senses. This evidence comes from parapsychology, anthropology, LSD research, experiential psychotherapy, thanatology, and the study of spontaneously occurring nonordinary states of consciousness. All these disciplines have amassed impressive data demonstrating clearly that human consciousness is capable of doing many things that the brain (as understood by mainstream science) could not possibly do."
~ The Cosmic Game (Stanislav Grof M.D.)

-------------------------------------------------------

"Many serious and trustworthy people have reported that, to their great surprise, they were able to experience an enhanced consciousness, independently of their body. On the basis of a few scientifically sound studies of NDE among cardiac arrest survivors, researchers have come to the conclusion that current scientific knowledge cannot offer an adequate explanation for the cause and content of a near-death experience. Some prospective, empirical studies provide conclusive evidence that it is possible to experience an enhanced and lucid consciousness during a cardiac arrest. We appear to have scientific proof that the cerebral cortex and brain stem are devoid of measurable activity during a cardiac arrest and that the clinical picture also reflects a loss of all brain function. Brain studies have shown that under normal circumstances a functioning, collaborative network of brain centers is a prerequisite for the experience of waking consciousness. This is absent during a cardiac arrest. Oxygen deficiency in itself provides no explanation because NDEs can be reported under circumstances that are not life-threatening, such as mortal fear or a serious depression. Our mind is capable of altering the anatomy and function of the brain (neuroplasticity). In many respects, both consciousness and brain function remain a huge mystery.

The brain and the body merely function as a relay station receiving part of the overall consciousness and part of our memories in our waking consciousness in the form of measurable and constantly changing electromagnetic fields. In this view, these electromagnetic fields of the brain are not the cause but rather the effect or consequence of endless consciousness. According to this concept, our brain can be compared to a television set that receives information from electromagnetic fields and decodes it into sound and vision. Our brain can also be compared to a television camera, which converts sound and vision into electromagnetic waves, or encodes it. These electromagnetic waves contain the essence of all information for a TV program but are available to our senses only through a television camera and set. In this view, brain function can be seen as a transceiver; the brain does not produce but rather facilitates consciousness. And DMT or dimethyltryptamine, which is produced in the pineal gland, could play an important role in disturbing this process, as we saw earlier. Consciousness contains the seeds of all the information that is stored as wave functions in nonlocal space. It transmits information to the brain and via the brain receives information from the body and the senses. That consciousness affects both form and function of the brain and the body has been described in the discussion of neuroplasticity (“The mind can change the brain”).

Consciousness is not confined to the brain because consciousness is nonlocal, and our brain facilitates rather than produces our experience of consciousness. Whereas our waking consciousness has a biological basis, because our body functions as an interface, there is no biological basis for our endless and nonlocal consciousness, which has its roots in nonlocal space. Waking consciousness is experienced via the body, but endless consciousness does not reside in our brain.

It often takes an NDE to get people to think about the possibility of experiencing consciousness independently of the body and to realize that consciousness has probably always been and always will be, that everything and everybody are connected, that all of our thoughts will exist forever and have an impact on both ourselves and our surroundings, and that death as such does not exist. An NDE provides an opportunity to reconsider our relationship with ourselves, others, and nature, but only if we continue to ask open questions and abandon preconceptions."
~ Consciousness Beyond Life (Pim van Lommel M.D.)
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Old 03-30-2018, 03:09 AM   #29
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First off, starrysky, I didn't consider this 'arguing' so much as just casual debate. That's fine.

wolfgaze, thanks for that. Certainly never claimed to be a scholar. Far, far from it. Even though I assert, I have no doubt I'll encounter wrongness (possibly much); I'm not too humbled these days, but I expect it and appreciate it. I wouldn't say I'm indoctrinated into scientific materialism, so I'm willing to listen. I always enjoy expanding my definition of concepts, and that's interesting what you present to me. Some of the sources seem questionable. I'll have to check them out. I certainly disagree with: that everything and everybody are connected, that all of our thoughts will exist forever and have an impact on both ourselves and our surroundings, and that death as such does not exist.

I'd always considered consciousness - the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world. I was definitely speaking in reductionist terms to save time, and I shouldn't have said consciousness is only localized to the brain. To the mind and body I should say. Though you'd have to break down, or reduce for me, how consciousness extends beyond mind and body. I know it can influence things outside itself.

But you'd have to further clarify how our mind extends beyond our physical selves. Mind
, I suppose is, pretty open to interpretation. There's an article that suggests 'In other words, our mind is not simply our perception of experiences, but those experiences themselves.' That's certainly an expanded definition that I've not really considered.
And I should also ask, for curiosity's sake, what this evolved idea of consciousness means to you? Does it make you believe in life after death etc.? This still would not change much for me. I still believe your essence is wiped away after death.

"If consciousness is not a product of the brain it would mean that the human physicality is not required for the continuation of consciousness, or consciousness itself." - From an article. Certainly an interesting concept.

I'm certainly skeptical of this notion that "people have the ability to project their consciousness outside of our body and view another remote location." I take fields of study like parapsychology with a grain of salt typically.

Someone would have to really sell me the idea that human perception extends beyond the reach of the senses.

Do you consider consciousness the means by which aspects of our experience are represented, stored, retrieved and shared with other minds via language and other signals?

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Old 03-30-2018, 03:41 AM   #30
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Well, it's long since been proven we as human beings have a sense beyond the 5 physical ones. The "6th Sense" is real. That is the sense beyond the physical self. That feeling, perhaps, of being watched when your back is turned to said watcher. That feeling mothers get sometimes when their infant is in distress and calling out to them. An intuition that goes beyond sight, sound, taste, smell, and touch. It's real, whether you chose to believe it or not. It's called extrasensory perception and though it's stronger with some people, all have it.

Myself, my mother and my grandmother are all proof of this. Apparently within us is a higher concentration of electrical energies, which gives all of us a very strong aura. This aura effects devices which we wear, given that we wear them long enough. These devices, watches are the most common example, simply stop working after about a year of wearing them, even those with battery life guaranteed to be longer than a year. Apparently our strong auras suck the electrical energy out of the watch battery, siphoning it slowly until the battery no longer holds a charge.

Auras are strongly linked to the 6th sense, in case you're wondering how this all links up. The stronger and more receptive our auras are to the energy around us, the more likely we are able to perceive with it. In fact, some are able to see the auras of other people. I admit, I don't have this gift, per say, but I can sense auras and if I close my eyes, my 6th sense can allow me to feel the aura and in my mind chakra or the third eye, I can see it and all it's blemishes. If I concentrate my energy and mind hard enough, I can even extract the blemishes from the aura and allow it to flow freely, thus opening up the chakras.

I hope this evidence I put forth helps in someway prove to those nonbelievers out there that there is a world beyond the world we sense in the conventional way.

Have a good day!
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