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Unread 03-19-2017, 06:28 PM   #181
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Default Re: Trying to get out

What do you mean you pay a fortune? I understand if you don't want to answer. I can relate spending $ I don't have on therapy yet my therapist gives me a discounted rate, so I'm fortunate. Also wanted to mention my therapist has told me many times to come more than once a week; he's even said he thinks not meeting more than once a week has caused a lot of problems in our work together. Almost to the point where he didn't want to work with me if I couldn't see him more. He also limited emails at this time. Those behaviors aren't necessarily related to unethical therapists, moreso to strong transference. Your case is different, but I wanted to put that out there.

Regarding your recent updates -it sounds like he sensed losing his power over you (after your email) and tried to take some back with his email restriction. That's how I interpret his behavior. I once had someone manipulate me in a sexual way too. Strangely similar to an experience I once had. Not a therapist, but I am somewhat biased to that experience. Sex also serves as a soothing mechanism for me, so I'm vulnerable in that regard....I understand those vulnerabilities too.

Did you ever bring up to T1 his mishandling the transference or taking advantage of you? I also wonder-at what point did you realize this was happening? I know you were really confused about this for a long time, then T2 eventually confirmed it, in addition to views from others. Why didn't T2 report him? Like others said, he sounds objective from what you've said here.

It might be worth considering searching out a new therapist, maybe a female one who does a sliding scale as you mentioned. Not that T2 isn't being helpful, but as you described, his situation adds so much stress to your already stressed self. And the amount you are spending and sacrificing, like with your baby. That is too much Ramona. I wonder sometimes too if the attachment to T1 is more than sexual and related to the age 12 stuff. What about from much younger years? Did you have attachment trauma when you were young?

Looking for a new therapist might be the last thing on your mind right now, but it might solve several problems, leaving you with less problems on your plate, which could give you some relief. Though severing the relationships with T1 and T2 might counteract it. But a lot of people do go 'cold turkey' with success, so I wouldn't rule out that option.

Really supporting your efforts Ramona, you are being really strong.
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Unread 03-19-2017, 10:01 PM   #182
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Default Re: Trying to get out

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Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight View Post

I'm totally rambling now. But the point I'm trying to make is, it's entirely possible to both care about a T as a human being AND want them to be there for you. (I mean, isn't that how it is with people in real life, too?) If a T chooses to continue going to work--rather than, say, taking a leave of absence--while going through a difficult period in their personal life (illness in family member, divorce, etc.), then they're saying that they still are prepared to meet the demands of their job/clients. MC told me something similar. That I shouldn't give him a pass on stuff or be reluctant to tell him I'm upset about something, etc., because of what he's going through. Because therapy is about me, not him.

Hope this helps somewhat--just saying I understand! The fact that you're going through what you are with T1 means you're even more in need of support, and I'm sure T2 gets that. The part of YellowBuggy's post that you should keep in mind (and which I tried to as well during that period) is that if he can't get back to you right away, it's probably NOT that he doesn't care or that he's mad at you or anything like that. He probably just has other stuff going on in his life.
Thank you LT. I feel guilty enough about asking this guy for help when he's clearly pushed himself to the brink to pay for his daughter's treatment without being told I "need to think of him as a human being" like I'm some sort of selfish monster who has no compassion for someone with a baby with cancer. It's just SUPER painful to realize I've been manipulated for years by one therapist, then contact the second therapist and tell him I'm now freaked out by HIM because he has a relationship with T1, then tell him T1 humiliated and manipulated me AGAIN in session and I feel shredded, and then not hear back from T2 at all. For three days. I don't call him out on this because I know he's got so much on his plate, but I also realize that that's not good therapy, because it's me worrying about HIM. And the fact that he knows T1 personally and that before I told him about the whole T1 disaster he said "Oh yeah, he's a really great guy. I like the **** out of him."

It's a big mess. I came here yesterday to say some of the things I'd like to say to T2 but hold back because I don't want to bother him with because he's so overwhelmed.

Thanks for being compassionate.
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Unread 03-19-2017, 10:12 PM   #183
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Default Re: Trying to get out

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What do you mean you pay a fortune? I understand if you don't want to answer. I can relate spending $ I don't have on therapy yet my therapist gives me a discounted rate, so I'm fortunate. Also wanted to mention my therapist has told me many times to come more than once a week; he's even said he thinks not meeting more than once a week has caused a lot of problems in our work together. Almost to the point where he didn't want to work with me if I couldn't see him more. He also limited emails at this time. Those behaviors aren't necessarily related to unethical therapists, moreso to strong transference. Your case is different, but I wanted to put that out there.

Regarding your recent updates -it sounds like he sensed losing his power over you (after your email) and tried to take some back with his email restriction. That's how I interpret his behavior. I once had someone manipulate me in a sexual way too. Strangely similar to an experience I once had. Not a therapist, but I am somewhat biased to that experience. Sex also serves as a soothing mechanism for me, so I'm vulnerable in that regard....I understand those vulnerabilities too.

Did you ever bring up to T1 his mishandling the transference or taking advantage of you? I also wonder-at what point did you realize this was happening? I know you were really confused about this for a long time, then T2 eventually confirmed it, in addition to views from others. Why didn't T2 report him? Like others said, he sounds objective from what you've said here.

It might be worth considering searching out a new therapist, maybe a female one who does a sliding scale as you mentioned. Not that T2 isn't being helpful, but as you described, his situation adds so much stress to your already stressed self. And the amount you are spending and sacrificing, like with your baby. That is too much Ramona. I wonder sometimes too if the attachment to T1 is more than sexual and related to the age 12 stuff. What about from much younger years? Did you have attachment trauma when you were young?

Looking for a new therapist might be the last thing on your mind right now, but it might solve several problems, leaving you with less problems on your plate, which could give you some relief. Though severing the relationships with T1 and T2 might counteract it. But a lot of people do go 'cold turkey' with success, so I wouldn't rule out that option.

Really supporting your efforts Ramona, you are being really strong.
I'm embarrassed to say how much I pay for therapy. It's more than half my salary--does that give you some idea? Plus I have to pay for a babysitter when I'm going to T1 because I won't bring my baby into that place anymore. I see T2 in the evenings so I don't have to pay for a babysitter then, but his fee is so high that my insurance pays less than half of it because it's considered "beyond reasonable expense."

If I ditched both these guys I could pay an impartial female therapist a decent fee and 60% of it would be covered by insurance. It would be a big improvement. But I clearly have this DESPERATE need to have men besides my husband pay attention to me, and it seems that there isn't enough money in the world to get them to do it.

To answer your question about when I realized something was off with T1 (are you the one who asked about that? Now I can't remember!), that only happened about a month ago. I was so depressed over T1 that I was suicidal and actively looking to buy a gun. I told T1 this and I was suicidal over his rejection and that I had absolutely no one to talk to about it and he suggested telling T2, telling friends, even telling my husband. He apparently had NO idea everyone would see him as the bad guy. When I told three friends (now four) about it, they've all said: "That guy is a sicko. Report him to the board immediately and never go back." I had thought I was asking them all for support because I'd been rejected by a man I was in love with. ALL of them told me that I'm being used and manipulated financially and emotionally by a very sick person with serious intimacy issues of his own.

When I told T2, he was extremely compassionate, but definitely didn't say T1 was at fault. He sort of looked at it like it was an unfortunate occurrence. He talked to T1 about it a couple of weeks ago at a training they were at together and said that T1 told him: "Another life, different circumstances--yes I would be with her." Then as I told T2 more and more about what T1 said, he was like "That's not right" and "That was inappropriate" and "He shouldn't have said that." T2 has said to me several times that he was going to contact T1 again to talk about my situation, but he hasn't--I assume because he's so overwhelmed with other responsibilities. When I saw T2 last week he said that he just hadn't contacted T1 about me yet because he wanted to get his anger about the situation under control before speaking to him so he could act in my best interests. It's possible that that's true, but it's also possible that it's 1.) just not a priority for him, or 2.) too uncomfortable for him to confront a colleague that he once said he "liked the **** out of" about his abuse of power with a patient.

Also regarding your question about earlier trauma. T1, T2, and another psychiatrist all say that something traumatic happened to me before 4 months of age and that's why I am the way that I am. I have no idea. I never will know what it was. My father is a Vietnam Vet with PTSD and a traumatic brain injury from combat as well as an alcoholic so I assume it has something to do with him. My mother was meek and depressed my entire childhood and once threatened to kill herself in front of me. I don't know what happened when I was little. I remember my early childhood being OK and everything going to **** when I was 12.

It was a really ****ing long weekend. It's almost over thank god. It is SO hard not to obsess. All I can do is try to distract myself as best I can. I have a big article coming out in a national magazine very soon so I worked on the rewrite for that for a couple hours today and was finally able to break the trance. I am so exhausted from all of this.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 03:32 PM   #184
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Default Re: Trying to get out

Well Ro, I have been away for a little while but I see a lot has gone on since I last read this thread.

I wondered if you would dare to add up what you have spent on T1 since you began. I would be interested to see just how much you have paid him for this "therapy".

Then maybe write a list of something you could buy for yourself If you were to put even half that money aside for a year.

I see he has started damage control, whilst trying to keep his fingers in your pockets. What a sleaze.
Reminds me of a text book con man. When you said he was a financier it made so much sense.
That's why he is head of the department, it's nothing to do with his people skills. It's his business acumen.

I am surprised he has clients although if T2 has all the heavy lifting and trauma patients maybe T1 was only meant to take on less complex issues.
Obviously a mis_step in your case.
I was absolutely gobsmacked when I read his responses during your session.
The way he spun it around and put it all on you. His disrespect and contempt is plain to see.

. Yet you would pay him to put his hands on you.

Can you dig deep enough to imagine what you would to to a man who did this too your daughter?
Make your inner child your daughter and fight for her.
Find all the things you would want for her and take them back.

You are the one misunderstanding.... my ***.
He is so full of b.s.

I am sorry T2 is overwhelmed, You might consider why you feel it necessary to almost bankrupt yourself in therapy bills.
Does it help you with your self worth?
I am simply wondering what propels you to leave yourself almost destitute, in this manner.

Keep going Ro, I think your going the right way. Am I right in thinking your pregnant. If you are I would be inclined to remind you pregnancy hormones are an utter btch.
If not ignore me.

Thinking of you, be kind to yourself, try and remember you can do this.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 03:55 PM   #185
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Well Ro, I have been away for a little while but I see a lot has gone on since I last read this thread.

I wondered if you would dare to add up what you have spent on T1 since you began. I would be interested to see just how much you have paid him for this "therapy".

Then maybe write a list of something you could buy for yourself If you were to put even half that money aside for a year.

I see he has started damage control, whilst trying to keep his fingers in your pockets. What a sleaze.
Reminds me of a text book con man. When you said he was a financier it made so much sense.
That's why he is head of the department, it's nothing to do with his people skills. It's his business acumen.

I am surprised he has clients although if T2 has all the heavy lifting and trauma patients maybe T1 was only meant to take on less complex issues.
Obviously a mis_step in your case.
I was absolutely gobsmacked when I read his responses during your session.
The way he spun it around and put it all on you. His disrespect and contempt is plain to see.

. Yet you would pay him to put his hands on you.

Can you dig deep enough to imagine what you would to to a man who did this too your daughter?
Make your inner child your daughter and fight for her.
Find all the things you would want for her and take them back.

You are the one misunderstanding.... my ***.
He is so full of b.s.

I am sorry T2 is overwhelmed, You might consider why you feel it necessary to almost bankrupt yourself in therapy bills.
Does it help you with your self worth?
I am simply wondering what propels you to leave yourself almost destitute, in this manner.

Keep going Ro, I think your going the right way. Am I right in thinking your pregnant. If you are I would be inclined to remind you pregnancy hormones are an utter btch.
If not ignore me.

Thinking of you, be kind to yourself, try and remember you can do this.
I'm not pregnant, thankfully! My baby is a year old now and I'm not planning on having a second one--certainly not in our financial situation!

T2 still hasn't emailed back. He's gotta go as well. Although I haven't told my husband all of what's transpired, he definitely knows that my relationship with T1 is not entirely appropriate. I've let my husband know that T1 is getting fired very soon, and that I'm probably going to be pretty emotional about it and will be pretty messy for a little while. He says he completely understands and will support me. I actually wonder how much he REALLY knows. When I brought up to my hubby recently that I'm planning on breaking away from T1 but it's going to be hard, he said: "Yes, I'm sure it will be. The two of you have quite a relationship."

It makes me a little bit upset that he hasn't actually called me out on it yet.

Your question of why I've chosen to make myself destitute over therapy is a very valid one Erebos. I think it has to do with this desperate need to feel important and be a priority to someone. I AM to my husband, but I feel the need to be "seen" and "heard" by others and that need is desperate. And I think that with my miserable job that I hate and the stresses and glamorlessness of motherhood, I feel pretty "forgotten" by the world, so I'm desperate to have these "appointments" in which I'm the focus of someone's attention--particularly a man's attention.

It's almost like I've created this miserable drama in my life because I need the excitement. That job that I lost four years ago that kicked off the initial nervous breakdown was a very high profile, fast-moving, adrenaline rushing, EXTREMELY exciting job, and maybe it just has to do with me desperately trying to get some of that back by creating this bizarre relationship with this man who is manipulating me--and a second man who is very kind but is too overwhelmed to take me on right now.

I feel like my world is about to blow up pretty fast. When I think about firing T1, I often think "I could do it right now! I could really do it!" and then I think of how I'll feel afterwards--and it's really like there's this big black hole that opens up--an emptiness that has no bottom, and I think that I won't be able to bear it.

I think the worst part is, I think to myself, "He'll forget about me completely. He'll move on and forget I ever existed."

And while that's ultimately going to happen anyway, it's one of the reasons I'm afraid to let go. It's like my life feels so SMALL without them.

Last edited by ramonajones; 03-20-2017 at 04:49 PM.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 03:57 PM   #186
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Can you dig deep enough to imagine what you would to to a man who did this too your daughter?
Make your inner child your daughter and fight for her.
Find all the things you would want for her and take them back.
Also, I LOVE this. This helps me. If I do go back into a session with him I'm going to read this right beforehand. Thank you.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 06:28 PM   #187
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Your question of why I've chosen to make myself destitute over therapy is a very valid one Erebos. I think it has to do with this desperate need to feel important and be a priority to someone. I AM to my husband, but I feel the need to be "seen" and "heard" by others and that need is desperate. And I think that with my miserable job that I hate and the stresses and glamorlessness of motherhood, I feel pretty "forgotten" by the world, so I'm desperate to have these "appointments" in which I'm the focus of someone's attention--particularly a man's attention.
This makes me think of something recent that happened regarding MC. After I learned his wife passed away (Google search after having bad feeling--obit was first result) and he said he hadn't planned on telling us, I was pretty upset. Saying how it felt like it wasn't a "real" relationship (because he wouldn't have told us), and MC was saying how it was a "professional relationship," which also upset me. How he had to care about all his patients the same or he'd be a bad T. I said how I wanted to feel like I was special, and he said if he had favorites, then he wouldn't be good at his job. (This really does relate to your situation, just taking a minute!) I was really upset about all this after session and left him a voicemail asking for him to call me.

He called either that night or the next day, and part of what we discussed was how I wanted to feel special. He said, "You are special.Just like all of my patients are special." And that's what I needed to hear. Even with that part about all his patients, it was like I needed to hear him say I was special.

Told H about that later. He said, "You are special to me." But his saying that had no effect on me at all. I was like, "Well, yeah, I'm the person you picked to be your wife, so it doesn't mean as much for you to say it." Which bothered him. Then later I explained that it wasn't so much about someone I cared for saying I was special--it was about a male authority figure saying I was special. Still not sure he fully understood, but it's kind of a weird thing to understand. I had something similar with an older male teacher in high school (but that's a complicated story--nothing physical ever happened, just to clarify--that ended in abandonment).

You've talked about the stuff from when you were 12. I get the sense this is just as much paternal as erotic transference. That you're looking for stuff that you didn't get from your father or other male authority figures from that time period. So, your husband isn't able to give it to you, because he's more of an equal. It sounds like you're seeking approval from men in roles of power over you (which could be sexual, too).

I wonder if there could be some element of that with T2 as well? Not the sexual part, but wanting him to see and hear you? Maybe it wouldn't be the same if it was a female T (I'm somewhat attached to my female individual T and have a bit of maternal transference for her, but it's nowhere near the intensity as for MC).
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Unread 03-20-2017, 06:35 PM   #188
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Also regarding your question about earlier trauma. T1, T2, and another psychiatrist all say that something traumatic happened to me before 4 months of age and that's why I am the way that I am. I have no idea. I never will know what it was. My father is a Vietnam Vet with PTSD and a traumatic brain injury from combat as well as an alcoholic so I assume it has something to do with him. My mother was meek and depressed my entire childhood and once threatened to kill herself in front of me. I don't know what happened when I was little. I remember my early childhood being OK and everything going to **** when I was 12.
Maybe that intensifies the feelings of not being able to severe the relationship. How can they pinpoint 4 months? I'm curious as I have preverbal trauma too but no one ever identified a month.

I was thinking it is related to processing excitement but I don't know how to explain it. I do think it messes with your reward system, and you end up with a low arousal threshold, which leads to the craving excitement. I was the same way, loved my past exciting jobs, and well just crave excitement. It also makes me think of bipolar...and ADHD

Maybe looking at it from different angles can help. I like Erebos idea of adding up all the money you spent.

This is so hard for you. I wonder what's up with T2 not confronting him too. You might fear losing him, but it could also get worse considering T1s behavior. It's not like he's trustworthy, so cutting your losses now, going cold turkey, might be worth trying for. I bet your husband could help you with this. Find substitutes for the excitement perhaps. Fear and excitement run through the same channels in the brain, so rollercoasters, scary movies, etc, can result in parallel feelings.

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Unread 03-20-2017, 08:38 PM   #189
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This is so hard for you. I wonder what's up with T2 not confronting him too. You might fear losing him, but it could also get worse considering T1s behavior. It's not like he's trustworthy, so cutting your losses now, going cold turkey, might be worth trying for. I bet your husband could help you with this. Find substitutes for the excitement perhaps. Fear and excitement run through the same channels in the brain, so rollercoasters, scary movies, etc, can result in parallel feelings.
I wonder what's up with T2 not confronting him too. It feels crappy that he hasn't gone to bat for me. I think he just doesn't want to deal with it. I think that's also why he hasn't written me back. I wrote him Friday morning telling him how awful I was feeling and he's sent no response at all.

I almost called T1 to fire him about 50 times today but didn't go through with it because I had so much fear about the fallout. I am so irritable with my husband already and can't stand the sound of his voice right now.

It's definitely related to excitement. It's like once this is over, no more excitement for me. No one will even care that I'm hurting myself by going to this guy anymore.

He was SO sleazy on Friday. The way he said that he won't even read or open an email from me anymore, and then saying that it was for my benefit--but that he still thinks he can help me if I'd just come in for extra sessions.

Right now I'm feeling like both of these guys ****ing suck.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 09:00 PM   #190
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Default Re: Trying to get out

...Or something could be going on with T2s baby.

Wonder if you can plan a way to take your power back, then cut it off. That way youll be leaving empowered rather than dealing with all the fallout and disempowerment.

Maybe we could brainstorm ideas as a group here. We could do recon, scope the area, then decide when to 'strike'.

He's done sooner or later.
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