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Old 02-06-2019, 10:34 PM   #31
guilloche
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Koru_Kiwi Oh, wow! That training with Sebern Fisher must have been amazing! I bet you learned so much... that's really neat that you were able to do that. I'm a little jealous Does anything stick out as memorable to you?

re: Keeping track of symptoms. I haven't done a great job with this. I do fill out a "training chart" for my provider, basically what I did (he puts new protocols there for me), how long, etc... then notes on my reactions. I have access to that, so I can review it at any point. But it's not really a day-to-day tracking of things, just reactions to training.

He also has me do surveys at night ("how was your day?") and in the morning ("how did you sleep?") - that have several questions to rate, and free form answers to just blab (though I wonder how much of it he's actually reading!) I don't really have access to those once I submit them though.

It's a really good idea... did you do it totally free-form, like a journal?

I need to give a little thought to how I can maybe make it useful, but also not repeat too much. I think it might be helpful, if I organize it (to avoid a huge wall of text), to jot things down during the day. I find it hard to remember things accurately over the course of the day... like I might be really miserable early in the day, but if I feel better in the evening, I tend to forgot the earlier feelings.

Thanks for the idea!

I don't remember seeing anything about sugar in the book, but now I'm curious. I struggle with sugar (forever, since way before NF) . One of the things I loved about the first protocol was that I felt less sugar cravings... I think I had more energy, so I didn't need the sugar to prop me up as much.

tree7car Hi! I'm really happy this is helpful! I wish I was further along and had great things to report but I'm still figuring it out, obviously! If you have an online provider list for your insurance, you might see if anyone is listed under "biofeedback" - I've read that sometimes therapists can get covered for "biofeedback", and will use that to bill insurance for neurofeedback (which is technically a specialized form of biofeedback).

I wish it was easier to find good providers, and easier to afford.

Progress

Tonight I finished the last test protocol. So the 3 were:
- C3 (left side of head) - made me a little depressed
- C4 (right side of head, using the right ear as reference) - super relaxing, but made me feel really lazy too, nice though!
- Tonight: Pz (back of head, hard to take pictures to get the placement checked!) - seemed to make me irritable. I'm unsure if it's this, or just the last couple days in general, since I've been drifting back to feeling kind of miserable and hating my life, and this seemed to just... mirror those feelings back, I think?

It was weird, because as soon as it started... I was annoyed/irritated by the sounds around me, the refrigerator motor was too loud and in the way of me listening to the reward sounds, the computer fan started to make noise, my neighbor was walking around and I could hear her. This stuff was surely going on during other trainings, but didn't annoy me nearly as much.

The plus side, the annoyance is also a tiny bit energizing... so I was able to pick up a little bit after, rather than just lay around and think about how I feel (ha!).

I check in with the trainer again on Friday. I might see if I can catch him on chat tomorrow and ask about doing the first protocol again, but for just 10-15 minutes, since I still think it had the *best* effects, and only made me sick b/c of the time. (Lowering the times on these last 3 has fixed the nausea, as far as I can tell.)
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Old 02-11-2019, 04:47 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guilloche View Post
Koru_Kiwi Oh, wow! That training with Sebern Fisher must have been amazing! I bet you learned so much... that's really neat that you were able to do that. I'm a little jealous Does anything stick out as memorable to you?
meeting Sebern and spending two and a half days with her was such a fantastic opportunity for me (and my husband). there were less than 12 practitioners for the training session (which was organised through my NFB practitioner and his practice) so it was very small and hubby and i had quite a few opportunities to talk one on one with her. she shared some personal info about herself, including her own struggles in her past therapy with her psychodynamic T and how NFB helped her. i found what she shared incredibly helpful especially since i too was having struggles with my own psychodynamic T, many struggles that were similar to hers. upon ending the seminar, while saying good bye and thanking her, she offered me some touching words of wisdom and encouragement with a kind hug. i was touched by it.

the sugar reference may have been Sebern sharing some of her own accounts at the training session i attended. unfortunately, i can't quite recall if she wrote about it in her book or not.

it sounds like your T is doing a good job of encouraging you to take note of how you are feeling during and soon after training with the surveys. when i kept notes about my symptoms, it was more just quickly jotting down things as they popped up. i didn't go into great detail. the only things i would record in detail were some of the vivid dreams that would come up a night or two after a training session. to me, many of these vivid type dreams seemed to have some relevance to the what i was processing at the time and i would bring them to my talk therapy sessions to discuss further and explore the significance. i always wondered if the NFB helped to trigger or 'draw out' these quite vivid dreams.
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:16 PM   #33
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Wow, the Sebern Fisher training sounds amazing! I really like her whole approach - and I wish there were more therapists who also used neurofeedback. The way that she describes it in the book makes so much sense, and I'd love to have one person to talk through things with and do training with.

The idea that NF brought up more vivid dreams is really interesting! That hasn't happened for me, but since I'm still struggling to figure out what my brain needs, I'm not surprised.

It's been a bit rough here. It felt like those first couple of trainings had such a great effect, but that's wearing off, and I'm back to struggling with a lot of depression and tiredness. And headaches. Not fun.

I talked to my NF guy (he's actually a neuroscientist, not a T, so we don't really dive into T-stuff) last week and got a new protocol, but he encouraged me to let him know if there was any weirdness, and to not repeat it if it didn't feel good.

This time there were two parts, so I did C3-A1 for a bit, then C4-A1. The C3-A1 made me sick while I was doing it, though I felt better after C4-A1. It helped lift some depression... but since it had made me sick, I asked him, and he had me lower the frequency on that part, and increase the time with C4.

So, I did the revised version yesterday, and I'm still struggling. I'm starting to wonder what it's supposed to feel like, because I just don't seem to feel *good*, ever, when I wrap up. The C4 stuff helps, I'm sure, but again, anything positive has worn off. I woke up with a headache and being really tired, despite getting some extra sleep last night, and actually ended up napping a bit at lunch

Stuff with actual T isn't going really well for me either. I'm a really difficult/terrible T-patient (part of why I'm trying NF!) and we really just... don't seem to be able to get on the same page. I like her, and she likes me, and we keep trying - but as she says, there's this sense of *awkwardness* between us, even after a year and a half. So, that's also making me feel a bit sad right now.

Anyway, I'm trying to stay positive. I know that, especially with the trauma background, it can take a while to figure out what works for NF. I think I'm mostly just frustrated b/c the good effects at the beginning were SO helpful, and really want to get those back.
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Old 02-15-2019, 03:40 PM   #34
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Ugh. Really bad day today, and it's getting harder to be hopeful here.

I talked to my trainer yesterday, and he was great, as always. I told him how much better I felt the first week, so we agreed that I'd go back to just C4 this week, to see if that can help boost things again.

Except - he still thinks I should lower it, just a tiny bit (11.75 instead of 12).

After the conversation, I couldn't sleep - because I was in a panic over lowering the frequency. This is the same site that we tried lowering, back at session 3, and where I ended up feeling completely *drugged* and non-functional, and didn't even recognize my brain until late the next afternoon. It was horrible.

I spent some time thinking last night, and decided that with the level of utter dread I was feeling, I don't think that I want to jump into lowering the frequency. Next session, I'm going to stick with what I originally had (but lowering the time, since that may have been the issue).

Those first sessions, even though they made me feel nauseous after, were literally the only ones that had any sense of feeling good - they're the ones where I was still excited to try again, looking forward to training, and getting really good effects otherwise. I felt brighter, more energetic, and like it was easier to get things done. Like, "my brain but better". And, now that's pretty much all gone... and I'm back to being depressed, miserable, and pretty awfully hopeless feeling. On top of that, I realized that I'm having way more headaches then normal... woke up with a really bad one today that is making it difficult to focus/work, so much pain.

So, I guess I just wanted to complain. I'm not sure why it's taking so long to find something that works. I'm starting to worry that maybe I should have gone with someone that has more of a psychology background, rather than neuroscience, since I'm not honestly sure how much he gets all the psych stuff - or if he's even interested in that at all. I like him and think he's clearly incredibly smart and experienced, but maybe he doesn't usually deal with fussy, anxious, depressed, traumatized, overly self-protective and delta-producing exhausted brains like mine?

It's been three weeks of trying... I just... had hoped it would be a little better by now.

The flip side is, I can't imagine doing this with someone in an office. After some of the reactions that I've had, I don't know how I would have safely gotten myself home. I like being able to do this at home, and to go to bed after if I need to!

What I really wish... is that there was a nice retreat type of place, near forests and mountains, where you could go for a couple weeks, get started with NF (and take equipment home with you after the retreat), have really awesome healthy food, cooking classes, nutritional analysis, hiking and yoga and exercise, maybe some form of socializing with other people, maybe some animals to cuddle up with (puppies!) - etc. Some place to go and get away from all the day to day crap that makes it even harder to focus on figuring this stuff out.

I'm glad it's Friday. But omg... this headache... is just driving me nuts. And I have a meeting at 4:30 my time, end of the day, on a Friday, and I really just want to be done.

Thanks for listening and letting me rant. I feel bad that I'm not a better advertisement for the NF - I really believe that it can be incredible, but I just can't seem to get it to work (yet) for me. And, I so want it to!
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Old Yesterday, 09:33 PM   #35
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More headaches today... not sure if it's from NF yesterday, or just stress (noisy dogs next door).

But, I looked through my notes from the last 12 days or so. 8 days with headaches. Of 12. I'm sort of freaking out... that's a lot.

I checked my notes (it's a food journal, but I tend to write down how I'm feeling and if I need to take any medicine) from just before I started NF.

Out of 12 days pre-NF, I had one definitely headache day, and one that might have been (I just wrote down that I wasn't feeling well, but no details). So maybe 2/12

It's possible there were more, but they weren't bad enough to write about... but still...

2/12 versus 8/12 is an increase of 4x!

I was planning to train tomorrow, but I think I'm going to post to trainer to ask him about this. I'm kind of losing hope here

Last session was the C4 (12-15) - for 12 minutes. I was kind of tired/fuzzy after, slept for several hours in the afternoon and basically hung out in bed for a good part of the day. I don't think I needed sleep (it was Saturday and I had slept in) so... probably not a great effect. He wants me to do 15 minutes at C4 with a slight decrease, but I think I'm going to double check... at this point, I think 15 minutes of anything is probably too much.

It would be so much easier if I didn't have to deal with work while also trying to get this all sorted out.
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