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Old 02-19-2018, 08:34 AM   #1
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Default Narcissists everywhere??!

I'm sure I'm not the first person to experience this.

1.5 years post 10 year marriage to extreme covert narcissist... I find myself suspecting narcissists everywhere. I don't think my suspicions can all be correct. I think I'm just quick to imagine I see them. It's sort of funny in a way, but it's still unsettling - both that I see them (because they scare me), and that I can't trust my judgment.
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Old 02-19-2018, 09:52 AM   #2
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There have been articles about narcissists everywhere over the last 10 years.

I think there is a lot of 1-finger-pointing-out, 3-fingers-pointing back going on.

The article-writers', finger-pointers' own (unconscious?) narcissism -- maybe not so much as to qualify them for NPD but still. . .they don't want to acknowledge their own stuff, and with all the finger-pointing, narcissist-blaming going on, it's just gotten worse.

I don't have NPD, by the way, but after a lifetime of therapy on-and-off a therapist told me 8 years ago that I was "narcississtically wounded and fragmented". I might have features of a covert narcissist, idk, I certainly try not to, and my more overt patterns were obsessive-compulsive about work, codependent and people-pleasing.

Lots of ways that "healthy narcissism" and the development of a healthy sense of self can get derailed by trauma and growing up in a family who don't have a healthy sense of self themselves.

In my experience, a lot of those folks end up as therapists, giving advice and writing articles for other "victims". It hasn't helped me much, and there is nothing that I have come across to help people who have NPD. Who are, after all, human beings like the rest of us whether they, and the article-writers, like to acknowledge that or not.
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Old 02-19-2018, 02:00 PM   #3
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Thanks Here Today - you said a lot. Narcissism is a spectrum disorder, of course. It's tricky to phrase things right. I should have said NPD, not narcissism. Firstly, there is healthy narcissism, I agree. Secondly, the narcissists I'm afraid of are people who pathologically control, then insidiously destroy while simultaneously deriving much positive for themselves.

There do seem to be a lot of articles and advice suggesting as you mention. Maybe that is shortchanging people with NPD. I'm new to understanding my own experience and am no expert. My post is more about my suspicion that I am reactively seeing what's not there.

Some people have suffered a lot because of living with someone with NPD. I have. I have lived with a lot of physical abuse by people without NPD. The pain I felt living with someone with NPD was so many times more intense than that, and reflecting on it still sends me reeling. But this is not a let's-side-with-the-victims forum. So while I seek the understanding of some, I do not seek to harm others. I don't wish to harm anyone.

It's not really what I meant to talk about, but since you've been open enough to share your thoughts I'd like to respond to what I sense from you. In my own up-close reality there is the person who doled out abuse and there is the person who received it and did not dish it out - namely me. So yes, in that sense I was the victim in our situation. But my own view doesn't end there. My view is that we were two broken people. That's why we ended up together. Our brokenness made us fit each other in some way. At the core of my husband is a little boy who suffered terribly, and perhaps no longer even lives. Understanding NPD helped me to not hate or blame either my husband or myself. We are two sides of a coin. We are random bad luck, or maybe patterns repeating in the human condition.

If anyone has tendencies that harm others, I commend them for recognizing it, or even for just trying to. Within the safety of the forum, I have been friendly and supportive to people who own that they have hurt others - as long as I perceive they don't want to, that they are trying not to.

I don't see good and evil when it comes to the kind of people we are talking about, and generally meeting on the forum for that matter. I see healthy and unhealthy. My husband and I are equally unhealthy. His unhealthiness hurts people, and I have to protect myself and others I care about. BUT I ALSO have to recognize, the less universally condemned but no less harmful ways in which MY OWN unhealthiness hurts people. I hurt my kids by making them feel good, by insulating them from their failures, by bolstering and "helping" them all the time, by not expecting their best from them, thus making them internalize the idea that they are weak, that they are not empowered, that they should let others be in control, that they should acquiesce... SO there's lots of blame to go around if one is looking for it.

I am glad I don't overtly abuse people, or inflict pain, BUT I have to work very, very hard not to abuse them in other ways by being "nice". I must work very hard to stop promoting my own abuse by having healthy boundaries and expectations. It's all very laden, and I'm kind of exhausted now, thinking about it all.

But because this forum is for everyone, I think the most important thing is that we are all striving to be as healthy as possible.

Here Today, I would rather be a source of support for you than anything else, and I would rather find a source of support in you than anything else. In the end, I suspect we both have pain.
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Old 02-23-2018, 10:18 AM   #4
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Default Re: Narcissists everywhere??!

I'm going to write you a little essay, because you said a lot here and I would hate for your posts to go unheard and unanswered.

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Originally Posted by wordshaker View Post
I'm sure I'm not the first person to experience this.

1.5 years post 10 year marriage to extreme covert narcissist... I find myself suspecting narcissists everywhere. I don't think my suspicions can all be correct. I think I'm just quick to imagine I see them. It's sort of funny in a way, but it's still unsettling - both that I see them (because they scare me), and that I can't trust my judgment.
You're correct when you say not all of your superstitions are accurate, as that would be completely impossible. You're only human, after all. However, consider the possibility that perhaps you are not entirely wrong, either. Pathological narcissism, while not common, is also not nearly as rare as a lot of people seem to believe. I think it's a distinct possibility that sometimes, you are actually seeing narcissism in others.

Why do you not trust your judgement? I'm assuming it's due to your long ordeal with a narcissist (we are good at making our victims doubt their perception of reality, after all), but I also am wondering if anything else in your life may have contributed to a loss of trust in yourself and your capacity to make good judgement calls? I've learned that with situations like this it is typically more than one reason/factor involved. People are ever complex.

As far as the more fearful part of you suddenly perceiving narcissists everywhere, I think that is a very understandable reaction to what you've endured at the hands of a narcissist for that many years.


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Originally Posted by wordshaker View Post
Thanks Here Today - you said a lot. Narcissism is a spectrum disorder, of course. It's tricky to phrase things right. I should have said NPD, not narcissism. Firstly, there is healthy narcissism, I agree. Secondly, the narcissists I'm afraid of are people who pathologically control, then insidiously destroy while simultaneously deriving much positive for themselves.
Pathological narcissism is definitely a spectrum. I am on the extreme end of the spectrum, myself. You are correct that narcissists in general are pathologically controlling. Insidious destruction, that is a good way to put it. We tend to be a bit less overt than say, full blown psychopaths. There is also a difference between a classical NPD sufferer and someone like myself, who is a more severe manifestation of the condition and has far more antisocial inclinations than a "pure" NPD sufferer.

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There do seem to be a lot of articles and advice suggesting as you mention. Maybe that is shortchanging people with NPD. I'm new to understanding my own experience and am no expert. My post is more about my suspicion that I am reactively seeing what's not there.
As I mentioned I think the answer to your original question is likely somewhere in the middle. Reactive and fearful perception can be false, but it can also be correct.

There are endless websites about us narcissists, and I know full well that I am a rare case, most of us never gain much awareness (if any) about ourselves, our motives, and our actions.

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Some people have suffered a lot because of living with someone with NPD. I have. I have lived with a lot of physical abuse by people without NPD. The pain I felt living with someone with NPD was so many times more intense than that, and reflecting on it still sends me reeling. But this is not a let's-side-with-the-victims forum. So while I seek the understanding of some, I do not seek to harm others. I don't wish to harm anyone.
It sounds like you've been through hell. Verbal, emotional, and psychological abuse is, in my opinion, more difficult to deal with than any physical brutality. I am speaking from my personal experiences here, I am no stranger to suffering.

I, as a narcissist, am not at all offended by anything you've said here, for what that is worth.

Quote:
It's not really what I meant to talk about, but since you've been open enough to share your thoughts I'd like to respond to what I sense from you. In my own up-close reality there is the person who doled out abuse and there is the person who received it and did not dish it out - namely me. So yes, in that sense I was the victim in our situation. But my own view doesn't end there. My view is that we were two broken people. That's why we ended up together. Our brokenness made us fit each other in some way. At the core of my husband is a little boy who suffered terribly, and perhaps no longer even lives. Understanding NPD helped me to not hate or blame either my husband or myself. We are two sides of a coin. We are random bad luck, or maybe patterns repeating in the human condition.
You sound like the classical victim of a narcissist. You seem to have a lot of insight into what lead up to you and your husband being together, that's a good sign for you. That tells me you're strong enough to do the necessary work to become healthier and hopefully not fall prey to narcissists in the future.

Quote:
If anyone has tendencies that harm others, I commend them for recognizing it, or even for just trying to. Within the safety of the forum, I have been friendly and supportive to people who own that they have hurt others - as long as I perceive they don't want to, that they are trying not to.
I've definitely harmed others, for no real reason except that I wanted to out of pure malice, a desire to cause harm and destruction. Any other reasons or motives are secondary for me personally. I cannot speak for all narcissists, just myself. I've destroyed many people beyond repair. I am here because well, for whatever reasons I am able to own my behavior and call it what it is, and that can provide people with some valuable insight into why narcissists and psychopaths do the things they do, and that may be the way that I make amends for how destructive I've always been, though I can never undo the things I have done and I have zero illusions about that matter.

Quote:
I don't see good and evil when it comes to the kind of people we are talking about, and generally meeting on the forum for that matter. I see healthy and unhealthy. My husband and I are equally unhealthy. His unhealthiness hurts people, and I have to protect myself and others I care about. BUT I ALSO have to recognize, the less universally condemned but no less harmful ways in which MY OWN unhealthiness hurts people. I hurt my kids by making them feel good, by insulating them from their failures, by bolstering and "helping" them all the time, by not expecting their best from them, thus making them internalize the idea that they are weak, that they are not empowered, that they should let others be in control, that they should acquiesce... SO there's lots of blame to go around if one is looking for it.
Your lack of moral judgement is refreshing, but that said, I would not be offended if you called me evil to my face. I don't see it as an insult, I see it as an accurate word to describe me. Though I think I am one of the only people you will ever meet that's comfortable with being called evil.

Again, your level of self-awareness seems to be quite high and I certainly commend you for that.

Quote:
I am glad I don't overtly abuse people, or inflict pain, BUT I have to work very, very hard not to abuse them in other ways by being "nice". I must work very hard to stop promoting my own abuse by having healthy boundaries and expectations. It's all very laden, and I'm kind of exhausted now, thinking about it all.
"Stop promoting my own abuse", wow. That is a powerful statement of truth right there.

Quote:
But because this forum is for everyone, I think the most important thing is that we are all striving to be as healthy as possible.

Here Today, I would rather be a source of support for you than anything else, and I would rather find a source of support in you than anything else. In the end, I suspect we both have pain.
Being healthy is my goal. I am not a good person, that will never change. I've accepted that. But what I can change is how I deal with the hand I was dealt in life, and I think that is all anyone can reasonably do, if they're being honest with themselves which I do believe you are.
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Old 02-23-2018, 11:12 AM   #5
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I don’t have NPD, as I said, but I have participated in this forum for several years – sometimes to codependently come to the “rescue” and support of the narcissists from what were some vicious attacks from people who thought they had the right to do that. But also, perhaps more honestly and realistically, because there is a “part”, or two parts, of me that are narcissist(s). And I have wanted to understand them better.

I say it like that because I was diagnosed with a dissociative disorder 8 years ago, after a lifetime of therapy on and off, and it does describe a lot of my internal experience of myself.

But I suspect that everybody has narcissistic impulses – just part of what we come into life wired with. And I think that some of those impulses can be what is generally called, for good reason, evil.

I’ve worked very hard coming to terms with my own “evil” presences. At one point I looked into demon possession and even went to an exorcist! That didn't help. In my case the evil part acted in, against me, more than out against other people, from what I can tell. But that was then a part of another kind of personality disorder and years of depression. So I haven’t contributed much positivity to life, either.

Coming to terms with “evil”, though, has been important for me. Yes, it exists. It is scary. But knowing it, and knowing about it, provides some – alternatives sometimes.

I think that probably can be the case in dealing with real-life narcissists, too. If/when we can know and accept who and what we are dealing with, and how they are likely to function, and that trusting them is not something that we are inclined to do anymore – then I don’t think we need to avoid them entirely, demonize or be scared of them necessarily. We are not so vulnerable to being hurt by them anymore and they just are who they are.

I’ve done that with my internal “evil” parts, too. Not so scared of them, there is a reason they are/were there. I think it’s all a part of a package – when I know my own evil and am not so scared by it, then I’m not so scared when I think I see it in another. I’m less likely to “project” and to see what might be evil in another more clearly and realistically. And to be cautious, perhaps, but not necessarily freaked out, though that is occasionally justified, too, and I am better able to distinguish those situations.
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Old 02-25-2018, 06:43 AM   #6
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I appreciate all of the very insightful responses. I'll have to respond later, kids just woke up, but I just wanted to say thanks for now.
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:36 PM   #7
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Holy moly, what a day I've had. Sometimes I feel so thin... which I'm not, lol. Just average.

Atypical, it was so fascinating and absorbing to read your response to my communication. It's so weird to have your frankness. It's like a psychedelic trip.

Regarding seeing narcissists/NPD excessively - I suspect part of what you say is correct. I may be seeing some where it is not. But 2 things changed for me. One is that I never heard of NPD until fairly recently and it's effect on my being was profound. My poor NPD partner was revealed - and my vice-like layers of confusion and angst came into focus. My NPD has no idea. It's like I just got handed his playbook. So the second thing is my awareness is heightened - and whenever that happens you see more of something because you're noticing, not imagining. So perhaps both phenomenon are at work. And yes, I am quick to doubt my judgement because I've been conditioned to. Bad for me. Good for NPD ex. However you're correct there's more to it than that. I didn't just appear this way any more than you did. In fact, I have a terrible time making judgments about things, particularly people.

Quote: "There are endless websites about us narcissists, and I know full well that I am a rare case, most of us never gain much awareness (if any) about ourselves, our motives, and our actions."

Yes, it seems you have a high degree of self-insight. Isn't it weird to know and understand, and still find it so difficult to be anything else?!

Quote: "Verbal, emotional, and psychological abuse is, in my opinion, more difficult to deal with than any physical brutality. I am speaking from my personal experiences here, I am no stranger to suffering."

Yup, same camp. But even though you deal in your way, I wish you hadn't had to suffer what life handed you. Thanks for not being offended by my attempt to get a handle on my stuff. I appreciate your suggestion that self-insight may lead to growth and change, I hope so. I'm trying. You have a good understanding, and I hope it influences your chances of health also. I'm sorry you've harmed others. I think it harms you too, especially because you know. You see it. My ex's biggest fear is that he IS what he is. He tries to escape, so he doesn't just gaslight me, he gaslights himself also.

Quote: "Being healthy is my goal. I am not a good person, that will never change. I've accepted that. But what I can change is how I deal with the hand I was dealt in life, and I think that is all anyone can reasonably do, if they're being honest with themselves which I do believe you are."

Atypical, I truly believe you deserve this as much as anyone else. There was an original healthy you - as there was with me. But it was taken from us. Like any theft, it's inherently senseless on some level. And fairness, well obviously, this has nothing to do with fair. I appreciate you're offering me a glimpse into your head. It does help. I would be glad to offer my side of things, if it ever helps you.

Obviously being victimized sucks. And creating havoc and despair... well I can not believe it's fulfilling for you at the end of the day. At the best it's a bag of chips. A distraction and a thrill to see your "effect".

It's interesting, and I hope not to attract the attention of bible enthusiasts - but there is something about the 12 tribes of Israel. Each was chosen for a purpose based on attributes that were not altogether good. The Levites for example (or was it the Cohenim) were sneaky and secretive. Their attributes were used for good by assigning them the keepers of the Holy of Holys. Another tribe... they were violent. So they were used as the guardians of Israel... You get the idea. All humans are is a bunch of attributes - to be used for good or ill.

You, because you have the insight, have at least the possibility of choice. You are not just a repeating algorithm. (Not that I want/need that kind of pressure right now, myself). But you have a set of attributes. They grew out of whatever. Some were you. Some are the armor you built. But how you use them is entirely up to you.

In a purely narcissistic view, I do believe healthy will be more fulfilling for you, will leave you satiated the way your unhealthy impulses never can. But, if you have a world view that is anything other than ultimate chaos and pain for all - you can opt to support your view with your actions. Perhaps we can try it out together as a couple of very unlikely allies!

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I hope within the safety of the forum, I'm not indulging my own unhealthy impulses by connecting with you, which I enjoy. But honestly, if the goal of "more healthy" is a common goal - I'm glad to be in it together, however unexpected it may be.
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:54 PM   #8
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Here Today, weird that you seem to be living both sides of the coin yourself. You're not inherently evil. You're not. I used to think I was also. At the age of like 6 or 7 I thought I was an agent of evil by birth. My pediatrician told my mom I was out of touch with reality.

Quote: "I’ve done that with my internal “evil” parts, too. Not so scared of them, there is a reason they are/were there. I think it’s all a part of a package – when I know my own evil and am not so scared by it"

I'm no professional, but I think knowing and understanding the parts of yourself you're coming to terms with is good. Seeing is good. There is nothing like exposing things to the light of day, no matter how horrible. Even because they're so horrible.

I have also felt I have different pieces of myself, though finally at 50 they are coming together in a more integrated way. I hope you will continue to see your selves, your personalities and accept them, one at a time. They each have a place. And I hope the security of that truth, that ultimate truth, might take some of the pressure off you and off those you effect and relate to.
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Old 02-26-2018, 04:40 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wordshaker View Post
I'm sure I'm not the first person to experience this.

1.5 years post 10 year marriage to extreme covert narcissist... I find myself suspecting narcissists everywhere. I don't think my suspicions can all be correct. I think I'm just quick to imagine I see them. It's sort of funny in a way, but it's still unsettling - both that I see them (because they scare me), and that I can't trust my judgment.
There are many men who are selfish, manipulative, etc., who would not be diagnosed with a narcissistic personality disorder but whose partners label them as narcissists. Your “extreme covert narcissist” probably would fail most (if not all) criteria for NPD.

‘Narcissist’ is a horrible term, a horrible disorder, that has gained topical favor (I believe) because use of the word concerning the other in a relationship (where else?) confers victimhood.

Exactly which traits do you believe are narcissistic? The answer to that question might go far in determining what you seem to be continuingly surrounded by ‘narcissists.’
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Old 02-27-2018, 03:19 PM   #10
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Holy moly, what a day I've had. Sometimes I feel so thin... which I'm not, lol. Just average.

Atypical, it was so fascinating and absorbing to read your response to my communication. It's so weird to have your frankness. It's like a psychedelic trip.
I'm glad my words gave you something you don't normally get, I recognize that my perspective is rather unique, so when I'm in the mood? I can be extremely honest, especially if there is little or zero benefit in deception. My actions are always a choice. I reject the entire "they can't help it" narrative that far too many people try to push forward for whatever reasons.



Quote:
Regarding seeing narcissists/NPD excessively - I suspect part of what you say is correct. I may be seeing some where it is not. But 2 things changed for me. One is that I never heard of NPD until fairly recently and it's effect on my being was profound. My poor NPD partner was revealed - and my vice-like layers of confusion and angst came into focus. My NPD has no idea. It's like I just got handed his playbook. So the second thing is my awareness is heightened - and whenever that happens you see more of something because you're noticing, not imagining. So perhaps both phenomenon are at work. And yes, I am quick to doubt my judgement because I've been conditioned to. Bad for me. Good for NPD ex. However you're correct there's more to it than that. I didn't just appear this way any more than you did. In fact, I have a terrible time making judgments about things, particularly people.
A shift in perception can be an incredible experience and asset when used with deliberate direction and purpose. It sounds like you had an "ephiphany" of sorts, like "oh look there's the name for this problem! So now what?!" It sounds like pieces of the puzzle are still coming together for you (correct me if I'm wrong). That kind of altered perception is closer to a paradigm shift because it's one of those things, now that you know it, you cannot unknow it. There is freedom in that, though inevitably pain as well.

Reading this whole thread does make me wonder where your lack of trust in yourself and your ability to judge people and situations correctly came from. You're right, problems like this don't randomly appear. I'm of the opinion that people are born with certain traits, certain predispositions, etc but how all of that manifests in any given individual depends on variables that frankly I don't think many ever see for what they are.



Quote:
Quote: "There are endless websites about us narcissists, and I know full well that I am a rare case, most of us never gain much awareness (if any) about ourselves, our motives, and our actions."

Yes, it seems you have a high degree of self-insight. Isn't it weird to know and understand, and still find it so difficult to be anything else?!
This isn't stuff I voice in speaking or in writing very often so if I've been at all confusing or if you're curious about anything I say you are free to ask questions.

I am of the opinion that people are who they are. They can either be a healthy variant of that core essence of Self or they can be an unhealthy variant.

I am who I am, nothing can alter that. Nobody has the power to change the essence of my Self. Any action I take is my choice and my choice alone. Nobody can "make" me do anything or feel anything or react in any certain way. To say otherwise would be to give away my power. How I see myself, how I choose to relate to the worlds both within me and outside of me? All of that is under my power and control unless I choose to give it away.

Knowledge is power. While gaining knowledge of the parts of me that were and in some cases still are sick caused me torment I've never felt so intensely before or since, I wouldn't trade the knowledge and power I've gained from my insight into myself for anything in the world.

Quote:
: "Verbal, emotional, and psychological abuse is, in my opinion, more difficult to deal with than any physical brutality. I am speaking from my personal experiences here, I am no stranger to suffering."

Yup, same camp. But even though you deal in your way, I wish you hadn't had to suffer what life handed you. Thanks for not being offended by my attempt to get a handle on my stuff. I appreciate your suggestion that self-insight may lead to growth and change, I hope so. I'm trying. You have a good understanding, and I hope it influences your chances of health also. I'm sorry you've harmed others. I think it harms you too, especially because you know. You see it. My ex's biggest fear is that he IS what he is. He tries to escape, so he doesn't just gaslight me, he gaslights himself also.
Thank you for that rare sentiment of sympathy, though I confess I hear things like this so infrequently I never quite know how to react when it happens, ha ha ha.

You're welcome, truthfully you've said nothing offensive.

Awareness is so simple and yet so powerful, once insight is gained in significant quantities you'd be amazed at just how fast everything comes together. Then you can act with confidence because that's the natural result of true awareness and insight.

Sometimes my actions against others did have a harmful effect on me that I didn't forsee at the time. Everything has a price, some more heavy and painful than others.

Your insight into your ex is dead on accurate, I'm sincerely impressed with your ability to see your ex as he really is. To be able to gaslight someone, or use deception in general, the first person you'll ever have to fool is yourself. That sounds counter intuitive and even insane, but think about it. If I want to tell a convincing lie, I'm going to be lying to myself first and foremost or the lie will be rendered completely ineffective if I try to inflict it on another.

Part of why narcissists (and psychopaths, in a different way) are so good at deception is because they don't simply tell falsehoods. They *become* the falsehoods, so ironically the lie is convincing, effective, and incredibly harmful/destructive because to them it becomes the truth.

One thing I've always had insight about from the start is my extreme level of deception that I exist in and drag others into. I think this is the reason I have insight about the rest of it, to have insight you have to be aware of the truth. I've always had an awareness of the truth, on a fundamental level. I have a weird ability to become the lie while not losing myself in the lie, which is typically the fate that befalls narcissists (and psychopaths, but again there is a difference between how these two groups deceive and why they deceive to begin with).

Deception, be it in the form of gaslighting, distorting or omitting the truth, lying, making up entire life histories that I can back up as fact even though it never happened, etc is always something I've done deliberately. Even as a young girl, I was constantly deceptive. It's a fundamental way that I relate to the world, both within and without. Being deliberately honest is as difficult for me as it is for someone such as yourself to deliberately deceive.

As for my motive, it's really quite simple for me personally. Again, I am speaking for myself alone when I say: I have always been into the art of deception because I know it is extremely harmful, destructive, and evil. I remember being younger than ten and being caught in my childhood deceptions and when asked why I lied, I would say, "because I'm evil and I like doing evil things." My answer to questions about my motives behind my behavior is unchanged. I lie about my motives at times, but I never lose awareness of the actual facts underneath.

The thing is that I'm keenly aware that most people don't actually want me to tell the truth. When I say this I mean that I openly warn people that wish to get close to me that I'm evil(I've taken this tactic for an extremely long time), and that to be close to me means being lied to, probably betrayed in some way, tormented by me, possibly gaslighted until they literally go insane, etc. etc. And you know what? People never believe it. They insist that somehow I'm secretly an empathetic ray of light deep down and essentially and/or inherently good, like they believe themselves and everyone else to be. They need to believe in the concept of universal inherent good in people for some reason or another. So, they simply refuse to see me for who I am.

It takes a special kind of person to be around me and not inevitably suffer somehow. Interestingly, the people that are close to me tend to be either unusually empathetic, caring, good, selfless, conscientious, etc or the total opposite: I have a disproportionate amount of psychopaths, sadists, and other kinds of people that are called evil in my life, whether they accept that word or reject it.

For someone like your ex, actually seeing himself as he truly is would literally crush him. It would be devastating. Narcissists, oh they hate being called on their destructive behavior for a reason! They hate it quite simply because of what I mentioned already: they desperately need to see themselves as 100% good and amazing and wonderful. To see themselves as anything less than that would emotionally rip them wide open. It is why the narcissistic are so infamous for their rages. It's usually because someone like yourself unintentionally stepped on one of those sore spots of theirs, or it was someone like me who did it on purpose. I tend to be toxic to narcissists, because it's in my nature to see people's vulnerabilities and to exploit them for my own purposes. Narcissists are an open book to me because I understand them, I'm extremely narcissistic. I know the mechanisms of it. I know how it works. Therefore, I know what makes them tick. I've made oddly satisfying friendships with victims of narcissists because I tend to prey on narcissists more than I ever prey on their victims. Why? I see narcissists as easier prey, and they tend to serve my purposes more readily(people who rely on deception as a way of being without realizing they're doing it are easy to shape and mold into whatever I want, and I can do it without doing anything overly destructive). Narcissists are oblivious to danger, to see danger would mean that they would have to accept that they aren't invincible, which they cannot tolerate.

Quote:
: "Being healthy is my goal. I am not a good person, that will never change. I've accepted that. But what I can change is how I deal with the hand I was dealt in life, and I think that is all anyone can reasonably do, if they're being honest with themselves which I do believe you are."

Atypical, I truly believe you deserve this as much as anyone else. There was an original healthy you - as there was with me. But it was taken from us. Like any theft, it's inherently senseless on some level. And fairness, well obviously, this has nothing to do with fair. I appreciate you're offering me a glimpse into your head. It does help. I would be glad to offer my side of things, if it ever helps you.

Obviously being victimized sucks. And creating havoc and despair... well I can not believe it's fulfilling for you at the end of the day. At the best it's a bag of chips. A distraction and a thrill to see your "effect".
Thank you for the kind sentiment, again. For me personally it's not that my health was taken from me. It's more that I'm perfectly capable of being healthy, but I was never taught how to be healthy. I'm still learning, but I must be making headway, I have many genuine friendships and so on, several of which are long lasting. Apparently I've been able to learn how to adapt and learn what being healthy means for me on some level.

When I was growing up I got lectures about why things I did were frowned upon by the establishment but I was never given messages like "you're bad/worthless/terrible/etc", instead I got messages that you'd think were healthy but that had a toxic and yes, damaging, effect on me. I was told that I was essentially "normal" but needed to stop acting badly, and that I was inherently good "just like everyone else", except that of course, this was an utter lie. All of these "good and uplifting" messages I got about myself from my caregivers were completely false. Now understand, it was an unintentional deception by people who had nothing but good intentions, but they were deceptive none the less. That deception caused me a lot of damage because I was taught an entire way of relating to the world that did not apply to me because I was not the person they needed to believe I was. Nobody wants to deal with the reality of evil. And let's face it, when evil manifests in a young child for no discernible reason? People *really* don't want to deal with that. I'm not all that bitter about people not wanting to deal with it, it's a tough subject. I imagine it's as difficult for most people to come to terms with and learn to live with what is evil as it is difficult for me to deal with the opposite. Yes, dealing with good is difficult for me. Some people are so good that they honestly repel me, because I find it disgusting and intolerable just as most find evil distusting.

Quote:
It's interesting, and I hope not to attract the attention of bible enthusiasts - but there is something about the 12 tribes of Israel. Each was chosen for a purpose based on attributes that were not altogether good. The Levites for example (or was it the Cohenim) were sneaky and secretive. Their attributes were used for good by assigning them the keepers of the Holy of Holys. Another tribe... they were violent. So they were used as the guardians of Israel... You get the idea. All humans are is a bunch of attributes - to be used for good or ill.
Indeed, I think that people who are inherently good or inherently evil are rare(and these are all my personal beliefs here, no need to blindly accept anything I say unless it actually makes beneficial sense to you). Most people fall somewhere in the middle of the two extremes, some leaning towards one direction or the other.

As far as Bible enthusiasts, I have a way of attracting those types and then later repelling them to such a degree that entire Christian sects have warned others about my presence. I think that by reading the novel I'm writing here you can start to see why that is.

Quote:
You, because you have the insight, have at least the possibility of choice. You are not just a repeating algorithm. (Not that I want/need that kind of pressure right now, myself). But you have a set of attributes. They grew out of whatever. Some were you. Some are the armor you built. But how you use them is entirely up to you.

In a purely narcissistic view, I do believe healthy will be more fulfilling for you, will leave you satiated the way your unhealthy impulses never can. But, if you have a world view that is anything other than ultimate chaos and pain for all - you can opt to support your view with your actions. Perhaps we can try it out together as a couple of very unlikely allies!

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I hope within the safety of the forum, I'm not indulging my own unhealthy impulses by connecting with you, which I enjoy. But honestly, if the goal of "more healthy" is a common goal - I'm glad to be in it together, however unexpected it may be.
You're very astute, I hope you know that. My choices are entirely my own and influenced by no one. The armor I built was not fun to live in. I was happy to remove that toxic nonsense from my internal and external worlds, even though it did cause me a unique level of torment in the process of removing it.

One of my inherent attributes is chaos, it's something about who I am that has always been there regardless of how I've chosen to use that ability to cause chaos. For me the battle has been learning to control said chaos and learn to use it in ways that are efficient and that will benefit me. That means I can't go around lying to literally everyone, for example, because it is not in my self interest to do so.

Chaos has its place, I got a lot of heartfelt thank you's when I exposed a pedophile for exactly who he was many years ago. That caused total chaos that is still lingering today, along with the destruction of that entire side of the family. The victims thanked me, the perpetrator hates me as does those in the family who choose to remain in denial. This person never sexually abused me, but I knew he was doing it and so I said something about it. Why did I say something? Because I wanted to cause chaos and destruction, and I figured that outing a pedophile wouldn't get many complaints except for the guilty and complicit. I was correct and I'm regarded as a hero, albeit an extremely dark one, for saying something when I chose to. The phrase "necessary evil" comes to mind.

Your attributes are powerful, and I'm glad you're choosing to share here.

(Edited on account of typoes and this got long, lol oops!)

Last edited by Atypical_Disaster; 02-27-2018 at 03:32 PM..
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